Curse

Bardon · Jun 03, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

First, before i post it. Thank you to anyone who is reading this and will help me. Me and my guild have been mostly a PvE guild and have just bought a guild hall and are looking into competetive GvG. I have read multiple forums, watched many videos of high level Guild versus Guild play, over and over for 3 weeks now and feel like I have something worthwhile, But I am looking for helpful suggestions and this seemed like the board to come. I have included all my notes I wrote when using the GWFreaks builder so you know what I was thinking when I built the character. Thank you.

Strategy
-When against a Ranger Spike group, put Aegis on, send warriors in useblackout to disrupt the next ranger attacks and then we counter with a spike.
-On a mage spike, Protective Spirit the Main Monk, and Interrupters interrupt all possible spike attempts. Use Shame (E/Me), Power Drain (R/Me), Power Spike (N/Me), . Send tank in with Hex Breaker (To try and stop him from getting crippled) & black out all casters. On teams with large amount of mages keep spread out.
-If their is to much pressure on our monks, the W/Mo start using heal and E/Mo start using heal (Main Monk call this if needed), and get our monks to focus on Mending/Curing hexes aswell as healing eachother until pressure is off.
-We can have a small spike when needed, counted down from 5 which goes through a series of skills to kill opponents.

You can view the build at this link here. http://gwshack.us/dab50

Here is my rough build without the skills.

Monk/Necromancer
Mesmer/Monk
Elementalist/Mesmer
Elementalist/Monk
Warrior/Mesmer
Warrior/Monk
Ranger/Mesmer
Mesmer/Necromancer

lord of shadow · Jun 03, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

very nicely presented and explained build- i dont have time to read through it now but you went to a lot of effort so i will make sure i do. one small point- pre-emptive prot spiriting is useless, just be quick on the spike catching. drain ench will be used before spikes and it is unlikely a monk will be the only one targeted

JR · Jun 03, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

one small point- pre-emptive prot spiriting is useless

No, it's not.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 03, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

IMO, pre-protspiriting is only useful if you know who they're going to spike. Just maintaining prot spirit on one target is useless because of target switching.

JR · Jun 03, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

IMO, pre-protspiriting is only useful if you know who they're going to spike. Just maintaining prot spirit on one target is useless because of target switching.

Pre-emptive implies you are under the impression that they (the target) will probably be the next spike target. In which case it is definately worthwhile.

dgb · Jun 04, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

You say that shame is energy management, but it costs 10 to apply and will only steal you 9.

Loch · Jun 04, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

In that case, you've delayed a Monk by one spell and burned away 9 of their energy, all at the cost of only one energy on your Mesmer.

Yep, I'd consider that fairly efficient energy use. That qualifies as e-management.

lord of shadow · Jun 04, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

-On a mage spike, Protective Spirit the Main Monk

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Pre-emptive implies you are under the impression that they (the target) will probably be the next spike target. In which case it is definately worthwhile.

i know what it implies, that was my wording. his tactics suggest keeping a prot spirit on the "main monk" at all times, as it will probably not be the next spike target all the time, keeping a prot spirit up on it is useless.

the main problem is your healing is far from adequate, and i cant see a single energy management skill on either monk (one of whom is not even a monk)

Aera · Jun 04, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

You do realise that blackout removes all your adrenaline right? Something you do not want on a hammerwarrior..

Bardon · Jun 04, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

i know what it implies, that was my wording. his tactics suggest keeping a prot spirit on the "main monk" at all times, as it will probably not be the next spike target all the time, keeping a prot spirit up on it is useless.

the main problem is your healing is far from adequate, and i cant see a single energy management skill on either monk (one of whom is not even a monk)

Thank you for your suggestion, and I can change that if needed, that is why I posted this is to ask for suggestions. The reason I put Prot Spirit on the main monk is without him, we would have no healing. Of course, this can easily be changed based on what kind of tactical position we are in.

For example, if one of our players is doing his job right and just took out a enemy caster/monk or something of that sort, and we feel the enemy team thinks of him worthy enough to cast a spike on him, all it would take is a call through teamspeak to fix our situation right up.

On a side note, the Me/Mo is their to supply fast healing & protecting, thus the lack of Mo/Me. I agree, I completely forgot about energy management on the monks, but, instead of telling me about it, could you maybe suggest some ideas for how I could fix up my build?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

You do realise that blackout removes all your adrenaline right? Something you do not want on a hammerwarrior..

Ah yes I completely overlooked that fact! But, I simply put it in their to disable a completely ranger/mage oriented team, so we could then have a few seconds to fight back.

And yes, Shame isn't really energy management, but I couldn't see what else I would fix.

Thank you to everyone who read my build and I would be honored if you could come back and show me where I could fix my mistakes (And what to replace them with!) Thank you very much.

Edit:

I have fixed up my build, added more energy management around and generally cleaned it up. I fixed the link on my first post aswell as here http://gwshack.us/dab50

Bardon · Jun 13, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

If anyone could still help me, it would be appreciated.

audioaxes · Jun 13, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

prot spirit covering before damage comes is not a waste....

CrispyCritter · Jun 13, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Comments:

Healing monk:

1) Remove Hex is a two second cast. The only character you might bring this on in GvG would be a mesmer. For a monk, you want nothing more than a 1s cast. Which means things like Holy Veil, Inspired Hex, or even Smite Hex, although the first two are probably better options.

2) Offering of Blood isn't used much on monks in GvG for a reason. It's OK as energy management, but it's dangerous to use under any kind of pressure.

3) Your energy usage would be terrible. Yes, you have OoB, but it's still not a good idea to put multiple 10 energy skills on your bar, especially if you have boon. Most of your heals should be 5 energy, unless there's a reason you need to use higher energy spells.

4) I really don't see a reason to put a hex on a monk, especially one that takes 2 seconds to cast and costs 10 energy. Don't get me wrong, Shadow of Fear is a good skill, but it would go better on a necro.

Generally speaking, boon prot builds are preferred to healing builds in GvG for multiple reasons:

1) They cast faster, which makes it easier to catch spikes
2) They can both heal and protect, which makes you stronger in a split situation.

That said, if you really want to run a healing build, try a monk with Word of Healing and high Healing Prayers for nice efficient heals.

Protection monk:

1) Replace Heal other with Divine Boon and replace Aegis with Inspired hex and you'll have a decent boon prot build. Note that it's generally not necessary to put a res sig on your monks, although I'll admit it's not unheard of in GvG. Signet of Devotion is also a nice skill to bring on a boon prot, as you should already have high Divine Favor (generally run 14 Divine on a boon prot).

Mages (Elementalists):

1) These guys have little energy management. Although warders are common on balanced teams in HA, this kind of build (with Glyph of energy, EQ/AS,etc.) is less common in GvG.

Generally, eles in GvG use Ether Prodigy as their elite and bring skills that are considered "utility". By "utility" I mean things like condition removal, hex removal, snares, wards, etc. Glyph of Energy is good for dealing with Exhaustion, but not so much for overall energy management. Ether Prodigy is generally the best energy management eles have available.

It's also common to bring Heal Party on your ele, as it's a very useful skill to have, especially against any kind of pressure build (it's also nice on the Burning Isle). Generally, Draw Conditions is preferred to Mend Conditions on elementalists because it's a faster cast and removes all conditions.

Note that Wards will do absolutely nothing against ranger spike, with the exception of Ward Against Harm, which is an elite water magic skill that almost no one brings. Melee damage means warriors and assassins mostly, although it also applies to pets and bunny thumpers (rangers with hammers).

Just so you know, this kind of build won't do lots of damage. At this point, warriors are the primary damage dealers, while other classes can spike. Mesmers and necros can apply pressure via degen hexes, but eles overall aren't very good at pressure. Your EQ/AS combo could do good damage, except that most teams will simply move away from you when they see you start casting EQ, meaning that you likely won't get the damage from the Aftershock. Also, since you'll only be doing this every 18 seconds or so at most (15 second recharge + 3 second cast time), it ends up being not much damage at all.

Don't get me wrong, Earthquake is a good skill, but it's useful more for the knockdowns (i.e. disruption) than it is for the damage.

Shame really can't be considered energy management, because it doesn't return more energy than it costs. In fact, it doesn't return any energy if the opposing team's monk doesn't try to cast through it, which most won't. In fact, it's highly likely that they'll simply remove the hex via CoP (Contemplation of Purity) or other means, and your hex will be mostly wasted.

The warriors:

1) Each warrior will need either Sprint or Rush. Sprint is generally preferred, but Rush can be used on the hammer war if he's having energy issues.

2) The only healing skill that either of your warriors should have is Healing Signet. This is optional, but many good guilds (i.e. Evil, WM, etc.) will run both Healing Signet and Frenzy on the same build. If you question it's 1337ness, try experimenting with the catapults on the Isle of the Nameless.

3) Do not run Blackout on a warrior. This skill can be put on a mesmer or a ranger, but never a warrior. Period.

Instead, consider giving your hammer war other knockdowns such as Hammer Bash or Shock. With Dev. Hammer, Hammer Bash, and Shock, you can keep a target knocked down for 9 seconds, which hurts when that target is a monk.

4) Berserker Stance is OK for building adrenaline, but most guilds run Frenzy. Takes a little time to learn how to use it properly, but it's worth it (hint: don't use it unless you have another stance to swap to should you start taking damage). To the Limit! is also a good way to build adrenaline, especially for hammer wars, as they generally take longer to build.

5) Drop Bonetti's from your hammer war since your wars are the last targets that any good team will attack, unless they get massively overextended.

6) Put a res sig on both your wars.

The ranger:

1) Price of Failure is terrible on this character. Blackout would be much better.

2) Power Drain can actually be used to manage energy with this character, but given that your primary goal is running flags, you shouldn't need that much energy management. A high Expertise score (14+) should be just fine.

3) Ether Feast is not a good self heal. Try Troll Unguent.

4) It's generally helpful to have a defensive stance, as you're likely to take a lot of flak when you try to run the flag in. Whirling Defense is great for this, although some guilds prefer Distortion since you don't have the 60 second recharge.

the mesmer:

1) You don't need both Rend and Lingering. Pick one. Better yet, if you have Factions, there's a nice little skill called Gaze of Contempt that will do even better. Alternatively, bring Shatter Enchant and Drain Enchant, and use Mantra of Recovery as your elite so that these skills recharge twice as fast.

Lingering is nasty, but it has a huge energy cost, and even if you cover it with Parasitic it can be removed, especially by the other team's monks, who likely have CoP.

2) If you're going to run more necro skills than mesmer skills, run a necro. You'll get better stats because you can use necro runes, and you probably don't need fast casting for this build anyway (although I suppose it would be helpful with the 3 second cast on Rend/Lingering, but you don't really need those in GvG).

3) Parasitic is not used for gaining health, it's a cover hex. The only time the health gain is really useful is if you're saccing health, or maybe in RA where you don't have any healing.

Also, I noticed that you didn't bother to put the runes on your characters. When you make a build, be sure to include bonuses from runes in the attributes. It's also a good idea to mention any equipment that the characters may need, such as a +20% enchanting item for a character using a lot of enchantments.

Also, I noticed four rez sigs in your build, which is OK, but one of them was on the flag runner, who probably won't need one since he should be running the flag most of the time. Generally speaking, all your characters except for your monks and your flag runner should have a res. Most of these will be a res sig, with the possible exception of one character who may want to bring a hard rez (generally a Me/Mo with Fast Casting, although an E/Mo with Glyph of Essence/Sacrifice and a ressurection skill such can work too).

If you have any questions about anything I said, feel free to ask.

Bardon · Jun 14, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Thank you very much for your detailed response! It has helped me alot! What skill (Across all classes, for my monks, aswell as mesmers and flag runner), would you suggest for Energy Management?

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 20, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Here's some help with your e-management in GvG:

Monks are the most cencerned with e-management. They generally go secondary Mesmer with 10 or so in inspiration. They use either Mantra of Recall or Energy Drain for e-managment. Drain Enchant and Power Drain are also sometimes used (even channelling on occasion, though it is much more common in HoH). Signet of Devotion is also sort-of emanagement (since it is zero-cost healing).

As stated in the earlier post, Eles use Ether Prodigy almost exclusively. Rangers just rely on high expertise (14). Necros use Offering of Blood or just rely on Soul Reaping if their bar is not too demanding. Mesmers have an assortment of options in the Inspiration line to deal with energy. Warriors usually have a Zealous weapon available for energy demanding times.

Thomas.knbk · Jul 14, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

people are confusing what is common with what is good. If something is not common it might still work. In fact, it will even be better because people will not likely expect it, and therefor not have the appropriate counters in their skill bars

TheOneMephisto · Jul 15, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

people are confusing what is common with what is good. If something is not common it might still work. In fact, it will even be better because people will not likely expect it, and therefor not have the appropriate counters in their skill bars

Things are common because they are good (at least if they're common in high-end GvG). People don't run a lot of really bad stuff at high-ends of play.

sir lockt · Jul 16, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

i know what it implies, that was my wording. his tactics suggest keeping a prot spirit on the "main monk" at all times, as it will probably not be the next spike target all the time, keeping a prot spirit up on it is useless.

the main problem is your healing is far from adequate, and i cant see a single energy management skill on either monk (one of whom is not even a monk)

You have to admit.. if you would encounter this build, that only monk would be your target...so PS would be very worthwhile, but wont save the show.

I believe there is way to little healing output here, the only one with healing power is the monk itself, and a skill like infuse and heal other wont work on himself. Besides this, boon AND heal other/infuse are a bit of of overkill and will ruin energy very very quick.

In general on the use of PS (bit of topic I know...) I agree with the OP and some remarks made later (by JR) pre-emptive protection is definately worth it, it gives you a lot of time when applied properly, of course you dont have to maintain PS contineously, just know spike cycles.

So a valid tactic is: use it on the most likely targets (thanks for the lesson in english language JR

Quote:

Originally Posted by jr

Pre-emptive implies you are under the impression that they (the target) will probably be the next spike target

and of course react quickly in any other case you have it wrong

just watch your energy...

Slit Wrists · Jul 21, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Shame won't help against an ele spike, but guilt will. And guilt is an energy management cause it costs 5 instead of 10.

Maybe you just mistook the names.